May 20, 2001
(Brent) great, since we are all here, I call the meeting to order.
(Jurian) right, for those who can't figure out how to work with the IRC client, there is now a webpage that lets you chat here (if you know the password) http://home.kabelfoon.nl/~jurian/chat/board.html
(Brent) thank you Jurian, it will be easier to connect.
(Jurian) no problem :)
(Brent) The meeting has been called to order
(Brent) Item 1, Minutes of the last meeting, any discussion or comments?
(Jurian) none here
(Gerard) none here
(Mary) No comments here
(Roger) No comments here.
(Brent) Good, then the minutes are ratified as correct.
(Nancy) None here for I and Shirley
(Brent) Moving on to Item 2 Review project list...does everyone have a copy of my modified list? lets begin with a discussion of that.
(Brent) Toni is joining....
(Nancy) My comment is that there are a number of projects STILL on your list which I don't think should be there.
(Nancy) I'm talking about chicks on worms, on foot video, wetlands as food, etc.
(Nancy) Many of these just came about because someone 1. had a site, 2. was curious, 3. offered their time, and the like
(Nancy) Shirley says "practically all of the video projects can go because we don't have the time or resources for them.
(Brent) OK, one by one...
(Brent) Do we not consider Videos Educational, or is it a matter of resources?
(Nancy) For instance, the video projects COULD be one project, saying 1. if volunteers provide content, we may distribute it at cost if deemed worthy, etc.
(Nancy) This is what in fact has happened in the past, Geson: did it and THEN we rewarded him and distribute this, Joel: is now coming forth with the 30 minute PS documentary of my lecture and if worthy, this will go onto PUblic Access TV and we might distribute it.
(Nancy) Videos CAN be educational, or garbage!
(Brent) So would we not list these as a #2, Videos needing a project site, if funding became available?
(Barry) I believe so
(Nancy) If the project stated, reviewed and determined by the board to be worthwhile to offer to the public, then it is a comprehensive project.
(Nancy) In other words, what if someone came forward with video material on carbon arc lighting, and it deemed it wonderful and distributed upon request at cost.
(Nancy) Do we have to have a project for every POSSIBLE video just in case? Lets just have ONE project, with an open door.
(Brent) I see, list only projects NOW that are in progress, and later let a person approach the board with a PROSPECTIVE video?
(Barry) A video library?
(Brent) I agree, group them all together as one listing.....
(Jurian) Having just one project titled "video's" makes more sense as a lot of smaller ones
(Nancy) Brent, I'd make it even more concise: ONE project called videos, and list those in production, those in process, and state our open door.
(Brent) OK, good idea...I'm crossing the individual ones off my list.
(Nancy) Also, many of the videos we list now, are dead.
(Nancy) Shirley says "Off grid energy and windmill/hydro should be consolidated if we're going to keep them."
(Nancy) Shirley says "Heat sources should be dumped. Root cellars should be dumped. Etc.
(Brent) Hmm....do the same with the Energy Projects? group them....good idea also
(Jan) As a general comments, we now have less than 2 years to go. No grand plans will make it within this time frame unless somebody dedicates full time to this, as was the case when Ron was on-site at Nancy's house
(Nancy) Maybe we could have a project called "labs", listing those we support or other places were research can be done.
(Brent) as in enengr labs, video labs, etc?
(Nancy) For instance, we have the hyroponics lab and it resulted in the nifty discovery that home-made hydroponic solution is a snap - otherwise an unknown fact.
(Jan) For the time to come, we must concentrate on getting the word out as prio 1, and building the base for people to start preparations as no. 2. The booklet is a good example so far
(Nancy) For instance, I'm offering my marsh/pond as a wetlands research lab, though we now have nothing happening there.
(Nancy) We may have, from the public or universities, offers of lab space and help, and we could list this.
(Nancy) Shirley says "This could also apply to batteries project."
(Brent) University lab space would be wonderful.
(Brent) Batteries would fall under energy labs, yes?
(Nancy) Brent, I'd leave it "labs" in general, as sometimes they mesh an merge.
(Mary) Perhaps we should offer our assistance to finding lab space after a project has been deemed high priority.
(Jan) I agree all energy projects should be grouped into one. The off-grid project was my idea, but didn't materialize
(Brent) But the general "off grid" idea is a good one.
(Jurian) yes, and a very important one as well
(Jan) Since DC will have to be the main solution for post-PS energy, batteries should be included in the Energy project
(Mary) With the "energy crisis" now happening, we may find everyone looking for solutions!
(Brent) Nancy, would you group "chicks on worms" in with Hydro, aqua, algae?
(Nancy) Shirley says "Do we really need the off-grid energy project now. Much has been written on these things in the TT web site, and there is plenty of documentation out there. The booklet is pointing to a few examples of how this can work, and it is also pointing to sources which people can query."
(Nancy) Brent, I'd leave that NOT as a project but as a nuance in the worm/hydo lab where synergy is being explored.
(Brent) OK, very good, Nancy
(Nancy) Truly, in my opinion, labs should NOT be exploring known technology but exploring something new, or new combos
(Nancy) This includes the lab in my basement, I'm not trying to defend it, and want a strick line drawn so we don't digress.
(Jan) The off-grid project was ment to help create wind-mills that can run a local AC grid directly. This failed, as I decribed in a mail on the Inc list
(Nancy) The only things I know that were/are unknow were 1. home-made hydro solution, 2. carbon arc as light-bult home-built
(Nancy) There may be more, oh, just rememered, manufacture Vitamin C
(Nancy) This is IT. We should not be doing projects where folks just want to put known technology together!
(Brent) Agreed, no "practicing" useing our funds
(Brent) So...the list will be getting even smaller!
(Nancy) I think the labs project should, perhaps, list what we think are unknowns as I stated, but also list sites and hands willing to help!
(Nancy) For instance, if a university offers expertise, and another site, a farm, offers a site, we could put them togehter.
(Nancy) I think some of the project that are getting dumped on here, might be in the category of volunteer documentation!
(Nancy) For instance, if Barry discovered how much garden is required to feed a family, this is volunteer info, but NOT a proejct.
(Barry) Not a TT-project....
(Brent) But valuable information, Barry!
(Nancy) Educational: booklet, servers spewing web or other content, videos at cost or whatever
(Nancy) Lab: existing, known issues to be researched, offers
(Barry) Can I ask a silly question about the labs?
(Jurian) I don't see why not
(Roger) Only unasked questions are silly--ask...
(Barry) Do we have university space for lab issues, or is alab considered a place where somebody is doing research?
(Brent) I think Nancy is still listing her groups
(Barry) Go ahead...
(Brent) no problem....a good question, Barry
(Nancy) Shirley says "We have basically paralyzed ourselves with concentrating on so many projects at once. And while they all seemed valid at the time they were begun, we have now discovered just how much documentation is available."
(Nancy) Shirley say "We should be REALLY concentrating on things like the short wave as internet project, which is at least something that we do know something about."
(Roger) But would the documentation have been found if there were not a project or idea for one to begin with?
(Brent) Good point Shirley.
(Barry) Ah, funny you should mention that verysubject....
(Barry) er- project
(Nancy) A lab is here research is being done.
(Nancy) CAN be at a university, but since corporations have them too, this is not just a university term.
(Barry) Do we have access to some place where say a shortwave internet could be worked on?
(Jan) Nancy - here (meaning your site) or where??
(Nancy) Roger, the documentation was gained for TT site in general, NOT from nonprofit member as a result of our projects.
(Jan) Barry, we will need many sites equipped for international HF communication
(Nancy) Barry, short wave internet is in existence, just needs to be encouraged, like seed growing.
(Barry) Correct, but I think there's a basic msg trafficing issue that can be worked at one lab
(Jurian) short wave requires at least 3 locations to do effective testing, at least in my opinion..
(Nancy) Jan, I'm lost, my site has a lab, if that' what you mean.
(Roger) What I meant was that the idea for a project may spawn a discovery of documentation that covers the topic well enough. I do not think we have paralyzed ourselves.
(Jan) Nancy, it was you message where you wrote "A lab is here research is being done"
(Barry) Folks, let's revisit this internet question later.
(Brent) Good point, barry
(Nancy) Jan, here=where, typo
(Jan) Barry, time permitting, I will try to lead the pack on the HF communication issue. Just need my Morse code before I can go on the air...
(Roger) Obviously we have projects that should be removed from our list as there is plenty of documentation out there (and on our site).
(Nancy) My understanding from endless Ron Darby discussion was that there is NOTHING new to be discovered, only getting the general public to USE this packet relay effectively.
(Nancy) The network he envisioned was getting a HUMAN network in place, functioning, so that after the shift, it would pick up and WORK.
(Nancy) As it, so few people know how to DO packet relay that it would not occur!
(Barry) Nancy - I beg to disagree, but will discuss later
(Nancy) So, this is, in my opinon, a project like seed growing, where we encourage and support the public doing a good thing.
(Brent) So, we(I) will rewrite the Projects List in lab groups, with subheaders for issues needed, or ongoing research.
(Jan) Barry, please use the TT Radio list for any such discussions. Viewpoints are welcome!
(Nancy) Barry, NOW is the time to state is research is needed for packet relay!
(Barry) Guess I should've said that from the get go :)
(Roger) I move that we table the project list discussion in favor of Brent's rewrite/regrouping and continue with the next agenda item.
(Nancy) What is it! This is to be the final project discussion, so please please speak up!
(Barry) Was that directed at me Nancy?
(Nancy) I move we continue this discussion which is months old!
(Nancy) Shirley seconds my motion!
(Roger) Well folks, sit back and get comfee, this will take awhile.
(Nancy) Barry, yes, if you know of an unknown, in short wave radio, then it should be front and center in the research!
(Nancy) What is it???????
(Roger) Is this a project discussion issue or a short wave radio issue?
(Barry) Very well. I think we need to incorporate the msg trafficking capability
(Barry) of a regular network into a SW network
(Jurian) Roger: both, as short wave IS a project
(Roger) Ah, I see. I thought we were discussing prioritization of the project list.
(Brent) Do you have a proposal on how to do this, Barry?
(Barry) They are similar, but there are differences and as far as I can tell, there's not been any research on the subject
(Nancy) Barry, my understanding from Ron is that msg traffic (forwarding) DOES occur in short wave.
(Barry) True, but it really is a subject for outside this mtg.
(Nancy) In essence, individual short wave sites HOLD the e-mail or whatever, and forward it.
(Nancy) This takes time, operates like an old BBS, but it is in place.
(Roger) I agree Barry. This is not about priorities!
(Barry) Tell you what. Let me gin it up and get to you later.
(Nancy) Will what you're seeking be built, and incorporated around the world, in time?
(Barry) Don't know. I couldn't fund it myself
(Nancy) The short wave project utilizes what everyman can/will have in his hands.
(Jurian) we have to use HAM tech. that is already in place, or we can forget about it going to work out..
(Nancy) So it's practical, can happen, if we get a few hundred EXISTING folks on our human network, then we've got the communications going.
(Gerard) I agree with Jurian ...
(Nancy) If we require them all to have something NEW, then this won't work.
(Brent) Since we already have shortwave as a project, could you write up an addition barry, as a subhead under the Shortwave Lab?
(Roger) It seems to me that we have moved away from the agenda. This is no longer a discussion of prioritizing the list. Can we get back on topic, please?
(Barry) OK, let's leave this for now....
(Nancy) The Internet today has msg forwarding, but this uses satellites, land lines, and power grids. Short wave does not have these same facilities.
(Jurian) Agreed.. this is too extensive to go into right now..
(Barry) Brent - yes
(Jan) The "Internet replacement" will not be anything like today's Internet, but a way to secure post-PS communication. The more TTers that get proficient in Ham radio, the better. We will also need to get "ordinary" Ham operators into this, if their equipment survives the PS
(Brent) Roger: point of order...it was never abput priortizing the list, its a bout creating a new one. We ARE on topic.
(Jan) Nothing new, just something we have to prepare. Let's continue on this on TT Radio
(Roger) Brent, all this discussion isn't about making a list. It is about the short wave project alone. We need to move...
(Brent) barry why not write up a proposed addition and present it next meeting, to be added to the existing shortwave lab?
(Jan) It is important to note though, that this will be THE post-PS communication method, how we can stay in touch, help each others etc.
(Barry) Brent - again yes
(Nancy) So if we have the Educational category, and the Lab category, do seed team and SW radio go into a Supported Activities kind of category?
(Nancy) Or maybe Support, for short.
(Brent) Hm..as in Support Lab? or Ongoing Support Lab?
(Nancy) In both cases, we've had donor (John Kelso for seed, Anoonymous for short wave) and accepted their funds as designated.
(Nancy) Shirley is verbally detailing what could be dumped into the hydroponics lab: worms, chicks, fish, algae, aqua, etc.
(Nancy) Now, this is not to say that ANOTHER lab, run by, for instance, Stan in Kansas, could not ALSO have fish, chicks, etc
(Brent) Yes, tell her that I'm doing the same thing on my print out
(Brent) we could simply list the other lab in Kansas as a subhead under Hydro/Aqua
(Nancy) Shirley says "Light alternatives and batteries can go into labs, on the off-chance that we find an expert, or that an expert comes to us, who can deal with new ways to preserve the lift of batteries, etc."
(Nancy) Yes, maybe batteries HAS an unknown, as there has been lots of discussion on what to use as a sub for sulpheric acid, etc.
(Brent) Or someone has a basement or garage lab to do research
(Nancy) Dirt batteries and the like is just an example to get folks thinking, not practical.
(Brent) true, as are potato batteries!
(Nancy) Brent, yes, as they may have the same components, but be tackling different issues.
(Nancy) The root cellar/storage was a demo project, and should be dumped. Nothing new!
(Brent) True, I had it as a number 4 anyway....
(Nancy) The current list is a combo of 1. original thinking on nonprofit startup, 2. my thought that my home could be used to demo stuff, 3. Ron's thinking on what he's like to have at a survival site, 4. folks offering to document this or that.
(Nancy) A real mis-mash!
(Mary) Brent or Nancy, can you recap where we are on the list?
(Mary) Project list.
(Nancy) Brent's to-do, I need to breath :-)
(Brent) So, to recap, I will rewrite the list in groups of Labs, with subheads, and it will be a done deal. Item 2 Mary
(Brent) however, if there are any minor modifications to be made, it can allways be discussed here.
(Mary) OK, i think.
(Brent) Agreed? any more thoughts before we move on?
(Nancy) Brent, all are labs?
(Nancy) What about the booklet, etc. or support activities.
(Brent) Nancy, no (more)
(Nancy) Ok, you mean per the discussion we've had here.
(Brent) Educational Lab, Off grid energy Lab, Ongoing support lab...did I leave any out?
(Nancy) Should we vote on this? Giving support to the general slash and burn, etc.?
(Nancy) Also, Shirley says "the concept of education/labs/support with subheadings".
(Roger) We should vote on the final list, I think.
(Brent) All with sub groups that apply to that area
(Barry) Shortwave falls where?
(Barry) ongoing support?
(Nancy) Barry, Support, I think.
(Brent) Hmm...Yes, ongoing support
(Barry) Thanks :)
(Mary) Lets wait until next meeting (again, sigh) so we can see the revised slash and burn.
(Nancy) Unless you can come up with something that needs to be researched, it's support.
(Brent) Roger, did you make a motion to vote?
(Jan) SHould short wave be ongoing support? Isn't that the current admin like the Linux servers?
(Roger) No! I think we should wait and vote on the final draft!
(Nancy) Jan, my understanding is that servers are an educational assist, and short wave is support like seed growing.
(Barry) I agree with Roger!
(Nancy) We're supporting a VERY worthwhile activity of the public.
(Nancy) I move we approve the general recategorizing into Educational, Labs, and Support activities.
(Nancy) I further move that we approve the final list at next meeting, after a month of discussion on tt-list.
(Nancy) Shirley says, "I second this motion".
(Jan) I second Nancy's proposal
(Jan) er, motion
(Mary) I vote yes to the motion
(Roger) How can we approve a final list prior to viewing it?
(Brent) We have a motion and a second, all infavor vote yes, opposed, no
(Mary) not final, just recategorizing
(Nancy) Nancy Yes, Shirley Yes.
(Brent) The motion passes
(Roger) Excuse me folks.
(Nancy) Roger, my motion states that the 3 categories are being approved, not the final list.
(Nancy) It stated that the final list should be next month, after a month of discussion.
(Roger) You said " I further move that we approve the final list at next meeting, after a month of discussion on tt-list."
(Roger) Which can be interpreted to main an approval before the fact.
(Brent) We can approve with modifications, Roger
(Brent) The board won't approve if they don
(Roger) Well, you stated the motion passes without my vote, so there you have it.
(Brent) don't like it.
(Brent) My apologies, what is your vote, Roger?
(Roger) At least 3 people were agreeing with me prior to the motion that we should wait to vote until after the list was produced.
(Roger) Count me as abstaining since you already have done so by not waiting for my vote.
(Jan) Roger, I understood the vote primarily as accepting the restructuring, and that the actual list will be up for votres next meeting
(Jan) votres = votes
(Mary) My understanding also.
(Brent) Mine too; moving on to item 3 ongoing projects Booklet update....
(Roger) Well, that's what I would have voted on, but the clarification was not forthcoming prior to the votecall. I asked for clarificaiton but only received it after the motion passed.
(Brent) Your abstention has been noted Roger...and again my apologies.......
(Brent) moving along to item 3.......
(Mary) Shirley is plowing throught the last of book and I will be receiving additional pages this coming week from Nancy.
(Mary) So until that time, I have nothing new to report.
(Nancy) My comments .. (more)
(Nancy) We are doing several things in parallel, to save time.
(Nancy) Shirley is working on the last of the high tech energy project, and some that I've categorized into Community issues - short wave, self defense, and she's included transport in this.
(Nancy) The only parts of the booklet not yet done, are these and the TOC, of course.
(Nancy) All the rest has been sent to Mary as master copies, and she, in parallel, is testing them in copies.
(Nancy) Some/most of the small graphics came out muddy, and if they did not carry content, I removed them becuase of this.
(Nancy) So, we have this all in parallel, and I estimate it might take until mid-summer to be in production.
(Nancy) Shirley also wonders if we should include other topics, like Computers, DC va AC, and Cars as Shelters, and more on Hydro/Aquaponics.
(Nancy) Shirley says "Should I pursue these, or leave it as is?"
(Nancy) I think that the booklet will be a work in process, subject to change, so if Shirley thinks it worthwhile, she can at least draft stuff up.
(Nancy) It will never be in granite, my thinking.
(Nancy) I and Shirley are done with our comments on the booklet.
(Brent) True, additions can be added in future printings....but do we want to add those three topics for this printing?
(Nancy) Shirley says "no" and I agree.
(Roger) I think Shirley's discretion on this is more than sufficient.
(Nancy) I believe that Mary is only going to copy x number of booklets, so change is easy.
(Roger) She has been doing quite well thus far.
(Mary) That is correct. 10 at a time unless lots of copies ordered.
(Nancy) I concur, Roger. Ron and I used to think that a TEAM if experts, per subject, would be needed, or at least an expert per subject.
(Nancy) Here's little Shirley, plunging in ...
(Brent) So, we would add them next printing then.....OK Do we have orders placed yet?
(Nancy) Mary, just-in-time inventory :-)
(Brent) Shirley, you are doing a super human job at this! :-)
(Jan) I think maybe Computers and DC vs AC could be interesting. Nancy, could you ask SHirley what she was planning to do on these items?
(Nancy) Brent, no, just starting to get 800 number queries.
(Jurian) computers on DC is quite hard..
(Nancy) HOWEVER, we have NOT put this on the web site as a offering, so no one knows to place an order yet!
(Brent) What was our initial printing?
(Nancy) Our Operations link lists: seed team, Geson's TV clip, and that's about all.
(Mary) Brent, I am doing only 10 at a time, with supplies for 100 on hand.
(Nancy) Shirley says "Jan, things that can only run on AC, and also that AC can be put at some distance from a source, whereas DC can't, which may be an issue in some settlements."
(Nancy) Shirley says "As regards computers, just a general piece on how they can be operated after the PS".
(Jurian) I doubt a general piece will be enough..
(Brent) Just ot get people thinking, and working. Thansk Mary, 100 initially should be fine!
(Brent) Shirley cna get feedback later, since it will be an addition next printing.
(Jan) Shirley/Nancy, I think this is should be worked on for the next printing of the booklet. As Jurian says, it might not be all that simple, and may need some more discussions & review before finalization
(Brent) agreed, any more comments on the current book?
(Nancy) Jan/Brent, Shirley agrees.
(Brent) OK, moving along.... did everyone read Jans email regarding the offgrid Project?
(Nancy) Shirley and I have both read and understood his e-mail.
(Gerard) yes i saw it
(Brent) OK, so that item is self explanitory, moving along then
(Jan) Not much more I can add then.
(Brent) No problem Jan....:-)
(Brent) Next up, Roger & Toni compiling a list and sending out letters to other organizations.
(Toni) I have a list of about 75 organizations
(Toni) I have been rtesearching them and emailing a few.
(Brent) Any response yet Toni?
(Toni) However, I am finding that most are not for profit, historical groups
(Toni) they are not offering much that Seed Savers Exchange doesn't already have.
(Toni) I am still doing the research, which is difficult, as the inet is now off limits at my job.
(Brent) Do you feel it is still worth persueing?
(Toni) My feeling is that if we need any varieties that we do not already have, it may be better
(Toni) to order them from Decorah, Iowa
(Toni) but I will keep doing the research and email.
(Roger) Unless we are planning to preserve varieties, we do not need any more, imo.
(Brent) very well, thank you for your help on this! Will you have more to report next meeting?
(Brent) or no
(Toni) I would like to concentrate more on medicinal herbs and low light crops
(Toni) yes, I should have more contacts for the next meeting.
(Mary) Toni, do you mean aquiring seeds for these herbs and crops?
(Toni) possibly, Mary, some are propagated by roots
(Brent) OK, good! Will you be researching the Medicinal herbs and lo light crops as a part of this research also, or was that a seperate thing?
(Toni) the medicinal herbs project is ongoing for me
(Brent) (Mary asked the same question)
(Toni) I think we should all experiment with low light crops
(Mary) Why don't you make a project proposal on this?
(Brent) Would be valuable research...
(Toni) we do need to know what will be most likely to grow, gien light limitations
(Toni) I keep coming up with sprouts, sprouts, sprouts
(Mary) sprouts are good.
(Brent) A poject proposal would be good....but we are getting off topic. Would you like to put together a project proposal, Toni, for next meeting?
(Toni) sunflower seeds will sprout, but not bloom, for example
(Nancy) Mary, good idea! Lab on how much or little light is required to keep them growing!
(Toni) do you mean to incorporate in our project list?
(Brent) Good research project!
(Nancy) Toni, yes, a perfect example as NO ONE in the world is currently doing this. They assume sunlight!
(Toni) part of it could be added to hydro, roger and I could work out the fileld crops
(Nancy) It might be VERY important for a family to know that with their light bulb they can grown x, y, z, but not k, for instance.
(Brent) And we could fund it, if you make a proposal!
(Nancy) Turn the lights down until they die :-).
(Mary) Using various wattage and lengths of time.
(Toni) i don't think it will need much funding, if any
(Toni) we have they hydroponics in operation
(Mary) this is different.
(Toni) we are growing field crops presently
(Toni) it is easy to shade some of them
(Toni) and there is already some documented research
(Nancy) Toni, if you need space, etc., my lab can maybe incorporate this experiment :-)
(Toni) that's good
(Nancy) Here's an example of an existing site (lab) and a research project/principal coming together!
(Toni) I am growing some at the hydro farm near here, currently
(Toni) this has opened up, again as a volunteer project
(Brent) True Nancy! So shall I add this to next months revised project list?
(Nancy) Folks, I'm supposed to be the relief shift at my sister's store at 3:00, and it's 2:45, still must comb my hair, etc.
(Brent) OK, do we need to cover Item 4 Nancy, thats yours...
(Nancy) Brent, I think we resolved Item 4 in the earlier discussion on projects, as these projects HAVE been consolidated, ture?
(Brent) Yes, just makeing sure :-)
(Brent) Well, then do e have a motion to adjourn the meeting?
(Nancy) Brent, my vote would be to add this as a lab project, yes.
(Toni) thank you, Nancy! thought she closed the store down
(Brent) OK, Nancy, I will, and board can discuss next month.
(Nancy) To excuse myself, my sister had a stroke and I was thrown into things here, unexpectedly.
(Jan) I agree - this sounds like a very interesting project that can be done, and that there are peoiple wanting to do
(Nancy) Shirley says "Jurian, please send the log with the time-stamps out, thanks".
(Jurian) will do
(Roger) If we are then finished with the agenda, I move to adjourn.
(Brent) No problem, we understand Nancy!
(Nancy) Shirley has no further comments, and I really must go. OK?
(Mary) I second the adjorn if needed.
(Brent) OK Nancy Second to adjourn the meeting?
(Nancy) Bye bye all, Shirley and I also vote to adjourn :-).