September 28, 2003
Session Start: Sun Sep 28 18:15 UTC 2003
(Brent) I call the meeting to order.... it's 15 min past the hour.
(Brent) Item 1 Minutes of last meeting. comments or questions?
(Nancy) None here.
(Mary) None here.
(Jan) One comment
(Brent) Yes Jan? lets keep this moving....
(Jan) The statement "- Jan said that he had a comment about the minutes, but actually his comment was to do with Agenda Item 2 of the last meeting" does not correctly reflect my commanets last time.
(Jan) They were related to the fact that the minutes did not show the request for the 2002 Annual Report, not the agenda item as such.
(Jan) No further comments
(Brent) Would you like to correct your comment now?
(Brent) Never mind.... I see you did.
(Jan) My comments do not need correction, only the statement in the minutes
(Brent) OK.....any other comments?
(Nancy) I'll include this verbatum in the Minutes.
(Brent) Jan: will that be sufficinet to ratify the minutes?
(Roger) No comments here
(Brent) Very well. With Nancy's addendum here, the last meeting minutes are ratified.
(Brent) Item 2 Changes to the Nonprofit Discussion & Vote
(Brent) There has been very little membership participation on this, with the exception of Mike L's email. As I memtioned, this is the 3rd month of discussion on this topic. let's come to some working conclusions today, OK?
(Nancy) Officially he is coming in late. What do the Bylaws state re Members right to petition the Board like this?
(Jan) As input to those working conclusions, it would be interesting to know if there has been any activity during these months, i.e. has there been any further booklet requests?
(Brent) Nancy: He did come in late, and the official vote had been completed. However
(Nancy) Section 8 Referendums relate to twarted members when Board refuses to address an issue, but this relates to Membership rights outlined in the Bylaws.
(Nancy) Jan, yes, booklet request.
(Brent) his contribution as a member of TT Inc should be recognized and discussed.
(Brent) Mike was not thworted, just late. Here, we are willing to discuss his ideas.... as we would any members request.
(Jan) Roger, do you have any activity report on booklet shipments? Have there been any?
(Roger) I have shipped less than half a dozen in the last three months, but I have more than a dozen requests on file. They were willing to wait for the lastest revisions (per this meeting).
(Nancy) Section 1, Amendments, states that Membership rights extend to the Bylaws changes pending by the Board.
(Nancy) Kind of a gray area.
(Nancy) Brent, no contribution to the Inc, but to the TT volunteer lists, he is THE top contributor. I would put his pages, alone, at several hundred, his TOPIC range at dozens.
(Nancy) Photos, detailed technical descriptions, electrical schemes, those difficult TOPICs, immense contribution.
(Nancy) But as to nonprofit contribution, such as we here at the meeting have made, none.
(Brent) Yes indeed. A valuable contributer.
(Nancy) His point was that the booket et al should say Pole Shift but date independent?
(Brent) True, no nonprofit contribution, but any member of the Inc. can request a discussion of a specific topic or idea.
(Nancy) Actually, reading Section 1, Amendments, I don't think his complaint applies.
(Nancy) Re Membership rights, it states 'c) the matter is a membership right, outlined in the Bylaws as such or inferred.'
(Nancy) 'A referendum is called by a motion and second on the mailing list. The President will then direct the Secretary to formulate a votecall and proceed to compile the membership decision on the matter.'
(Nancy) So, there was not a motion or a second, as I recall. Though changing the Mission Statement is an inferred right, I suppose.
(Nancy) He is lacking, then, a second to his motion.
(Brent) So, 1 there was no second to his request on the membership mailing list, and 2 we had already just finished a membership votecall on this issue anyway.
(Nancy) Brent, was his option INCLUDED in the votecall? I am having a tired senior moment and can't recall.
(Nancy) I remember 1. dissolve the nonprofit, 2. no change, 3. remove pole shift, right?
(Brent) Nancy: yes. so his basic idea was covered, but not in his specific wording.
(Nancy) I just checked, it was 1. continue, 2. disband, 3. remove pole shift.
(Nancy) I therefore second Mike's MOTION for a vote.
(Roger) Mike wanted "pole shift" left in the documents with a removal of the date.
(Mary) Sorry, but I thought we did that??
(Roger) He, as well as a great many others, still firmly holds the the pole shift as the instrument of the current and ever increasing troubled times.
(Nancy) I appologize for not responding to this earlier, but my main yahoo email address has been blocked with an unknown problem, so I can't empty the queue, and I have been 18 hour days lately with photos and email re earth changes.
(Nancy) Mary, no, the option said cataclysmic earth changes, I will go get the wording ..
(Nancy) Option Three: Change the mission of Troubled Times Inc. from concern with the "Pending Pole shift" and related preparations, to more general concerns with ongoing earth changes, earthquakes, melting poles, etc., and preparation for future worldwide catastrophe related to these. VoteCount 8.
(Roger) By generalizing this far, we encompass a wider audience.
(Nancy) To quantify his contributions, in the list by TT volunteer group member, where most have a couple to a few dozen pages of contributions, his line list runs to a half dozen PAGES, at 66 lines per page.
(Roger) Those that are upset and disillusioned by the missed date are afforded an oportunity to stay involved in our work if they can't get past that apparent setback in credibility.
(Nancy) Each of these is not an opinion, but data, technical, and he remains as a contact for questions.
(Nancy) Hundreds. I could profer this list if anyone would be interested.
(Brent) I believe that all anyone would have to do is to use the search engine on the website to see his massive contribution list.
(Roger) Mike is a scientist and an engineer. He has found his empiracle evidence to stand fast to the pole shift concept.
(Nancy) Well, frankly, I think these past couple days/week shows something in power outages in Sweden/Italy, 8.3 in Japan and 8.5 in Siberia/Mongolia, to say nothing of what is obviously a moving object AT the Ecliptic and between us and the Sun in photos from around the world!
(Brent) So, does this have to be readdressed to the membership for a vote, or do we vote on it here?
(Nancy) As I stated before, I firmly believe that we are in the grip of something that will not pass without a pole shift happening, but I stand ready to abide by the membership votecall.
(Roger) I don't think he will stop contributing, even if we make the proposed changes. He only states his opinion and desire to remain on course. Certainly something needs to be changed in the documents, the majority agreed that the pole shift as the sole instrument needed to be removed.
(Nancy) Brent, I think the Bylaws state that a Membership votecall needs to be made when Membership rights are affected, and the Mission Statement would seem to be such a right.
(Nancy) My opinion.
(Nancy) Sorry, I know you want this put to bed.
(Mary) Nancy, you stated that to change this would involve massive changes in the booklet. Correct?
(Nancy) I gave two interviews last week, international, on Feet2Fire and Gentile, and in both I emphasized the booklet, where to get it online, print it off, etc.
(Nancy) Gentile brought it up as I forgot! This is a BIG matter for the populace, folks, a contribution we made that is immense in the scheme of things.
(Nancy) And the pages that would be removed at the start, re pole shift and safe locations, are important IF one is pending!
(Mary) If this is so, can we afford the time and money to enact the change?
(Brent) True, membership rights have been affected, but I believe they were addressed with the last votecall, with a turn out of 8 members. There is still apathy in the ranks. :-) My question is: Do we need to put it to the membership again, or just leave in "poleshift" along with "major earthchanges"?
(Nancy) To go back to the Bylaws ...
(Nancy) Section 8: Referendums
(Nancy) 'may only occur when the membership is twarted by the Board, which has refused to take action on a matter.'
(Roger) We have to do something to move this forward. The proposed changes stand ready to be accepted, if they need to be reconsidered, then we need to decide on that and a timeline to conclude these revisions.
(NancyL)' (a) a public discussion among the members on the shared Internet e-mail route available to all active members, commonly known as a mailing list, has occurred;'
(Nancy) NOTE: he posted this on the mailing list.
(Nancy) '(b) a matter has been placed before the Board, at a regularly scheduled meeting, and the Board has refused to address the issue or take corrective action;'
(Nancy) NOTE: that is this meeting.
(Nancy) '(c) the matter is a membership right, outlined in the Bylaws as such or inferred.'
(Nancy) NOTE: certainly the Mission Statement is an inferred right.
(Nancy) 'A referendum is called by a motion and second on the mailing list. The President will then direct the Secretary to formulate a votecall.'
(Jan) Forget the bylaws. Some of us seem to use them as they please anyhow. If the board wants to take Mike's e-mail into consideration, then we do so.
(Nancy) Well, my Second is not on the mailing list, but ...
(Nancy) Jan, forget the Bylaws?
(Roger) Total removal of the words "pole shift" is a bit radical, in fact there was a revision that included removing "The 12th Planet" from the book list. This was too radical and unneccesary.
(Jan) Forget the bylaws discussion with respect to this item.
(Brent) Nancy: I don't believe Section 8 applies here. First, the issue WAS placed before the membership for a vote. He came in late with a further request after the fact. 2. the board is addressing his issue here and now, so is not being ignored by the board... no rights violated.
(Nancy) Brent, I do agree that he came in late.
(Nancy) Furthermore, the issue was discussed a lot before it was put to a votecall.
(Roger) His request can be handled, not as a need to rescind the previous votecall, but as a further revision in the booklet.
(Brent) True.... so, what about my suggestion above?
(Nancy) However, what matters is he holding up by requesting another votecall?
(Roger) His request to change the mission statement has not been seconded.
(Nancy) Brent, I like your suggestion, leave in poleshift, as an example of major earth changes, just take out the date.
(Roger) Exactly... another revision.
(Nancy) HOWEVER, in the suggested changes, all those pages referring to what a pole shift might mean were removed! We need to revisit what would and would not be removed, then.
(Jan) How it will affect the booklet, I have not checked, but ZetaTalk is not the only source for a potential pole shift. ZetaTalk has been the only source for a date, which turned out to be incorrect.
(Brent) Thank you. Seems like a good compromise to me. Leave in poleshift, remove the specific date, add major earth changes. That was all his specific request amounted to anyway.....
(Jan) Brent, another vote amongs the 36 members of the TT Inc list would be meaningless. The board should be able to decide on this matter
(Nancy) So, leave in the pages at the front of the booklet re what a pole shift would involve?
(Roger) So is a vote by this board required, or can we handle the revisions to the booklet without a formal vote?
(Brent) Jan: I agree
(Nancy) It would seem that the recommended changes to the Mission Statment and Booklet would need to be revisited.
(Roger) I have somewhere around a dozen requests for the booklet, some of which are a month old, that are waiting for this revision.
(Brent) Roger: I think a vote by the board woud be necessary here.
(Nancy) Roger, they could always rip out the pages :-) Seriously, all but the introduction is unaffected.
(Jan) Roger, with respect to those requests: How many booklets do you have in stock? How long time to print new, revised booklets? At which cost?
(Nancy) The GUTS of the book remain the same.
(Roger) Changing the booklet is not the issue. Deciding on those changes is taking a very long time...
(Nancy) Jan, no reprint would be required, except for the covers, it is only removing some introductory pages and the book list in the booklet.
(Brent) As Nancy said, the only chang is to the intro page and possibly the cover?
(Roger) How soon can we make that decision? If Nancy is as prompt in getting a revision out to us as she was last month, can we have an email vote to approve them?
(Nancy) If we leave in pole shift, then the book list can remain the same.
(Nancy) If we leave in pole shift, then the introductory pages can remain the same, as they address a pole shift but do not give a date.
(Nancy) I need to go back to the cover, as if we only say pole shift there, NO change to the booklet.
(Nancy) It is the Mission Statment, I think, which referred to a date. Be right back ...
(Nancy) Section2: Objectives, states 'pole shift anticipated to occur in last spring/early summer of the year 2003, '
(Nancy) Going to run up and get a booklet to see about this ... be right back.
(Jan) Can we soon get done with the booklet, so that we may also discuss what the agenda item refers to "Changes to the nonprofit"? Or will the only changes to the nonprofit be the wording changes in the booklet??
(Nancy) Cover does not state a date, no change. ..
(Brent) Jan: true, we are getting ahead of ourselves, but you did bring up the booklet before we were done with Mike L's discussion.
(Brent) So, lets group vote on this... (more)
(Nancy) I'm looking at older drafts, but I think this is the only place, other than the Mission Statement, where the date is mentioned.
(Nancy) I do think that the Introduction emphasizes pole shift as THE earth change to be anticipated.
(Brent) Mike L's suggestion to leave in poleshift without the date, and mission statement/booklet changes affected.
(Roger) I'm viewing the pdf's online and haven't found a specific date yet. I've looked at the cover and TOC/Intro links...
(Roger) Well, the Find feature of Adobe couldn't locate 2003 anywhere in the electronic version of our booklet.
(Roger) It seems we may not have any revisions to make...
(Brent) I and a motion if we are to vote....
(Roger) I move that we leave the booklet unchange with respect to the pole shift references at this time.
(Mary) I second Roger's motion.
(Nancy) I second this motion.
(Roger) I further move that the bylaws be changed as agreed by the recent votecall among the members.
(Nancy) I second this part of his motion.
(Brent) All in favor vote yes, opposed, no
(Brent) Brent: Yes
(Brent) Shirley (proxy) Yes
(Roger) Yes and I hope that this is a good compromise with Mike Lob's request.
(Brent) The motion carries unanimously.
(Brent) Very good! Moving on to item 3.... discussion of missing funds.
(Jan) Hey - is this all with respect to changes to the Inc?
(Brent) Jan: what are you talking about?
(Roger) Requests for additional changes as in projects or other pursuits where made per the last meeting.
(Jan) I have seen no discussions as to the title of this item, Changes to the Nonprofit.
(Roger) Double check the minutes or the log. Brent posted an email detailing the decision and the call for proposals. It was shortly after that when Mike posted.
(Roger) His email was posted, per the last meeting, to both tt-inc and tt-forum.
(Jan) So this is it? The votecall which generated 14 responses (if I remember correctly) is taken as the board decision without any further discussion and vote?
(Roger) Per item #3, I am not an accountant or an independent auditor, but I find no evidence of missing funds.
(Roger) What other changes would you have us make, Jan?
(Brent) "Changes to the Nonprofit" means mission statement & booklet revisions as discussed in the last 2 meetings.
(Brent) Jan: we just spent an hour discussing it!!!!
(Brent) I have not found evidence of missing funds either......
(Jan) Anyhow, if we go to item 3, no, there has not been any missing or un-accounted funds. However, despite the wording of the amended agenda, we have not provided an Annual Report for 2002 per our bylaws, no Balance Sheet, no Profit & Loss statement. The USD 12.000 refer to the depreciation from December 2001 to December 2002, which as far as I can see, has not been reported anywhere
(Brent) Jan: not 14 responses... 8 responses.
(Roger) Although there are members of this corporation that subscribe to tt-watch, not all subscribers of tt-watch are members of this corporation. Is the individual that insinuates missing funds a member of this corporation?
(Nancy) Rog, I don't think so.
(Nancy) This was a tt-watch discussion.
(Roger) Then this item has been addressed (beaten to a blurry pulp, actually) in previous meetings. I move this be tabled indefinitely.
(Jan) Roger, he is not a member. He has however quoted from our logs on the discussion on the depreciation
(Brent) I don't recall any missing "Balance Sheets" or any problems with our accounting records.
(Roger) Then I suppose he won't be making any charitable contributions to this US IRS registered non-profit corporation?
(Jan) Brent, we may beat this to death once more, but we have not done any Annual Report as requested by our Bylaws. If such a report is available, I would like to get it.
(Nancy) He has no standing, and in fact is hardly a friend of the effort to inform the public as to earth changes, either.
(Nancy) Jan, you are WRONG! We went over this the last meeting or two. What is required is what has been provided.
(Roger) I mean, come on, we have discussed this to the point of oblivion. We are not United Way and have a multi-billion dollar budget which needs such close scrutinization less the President make off with funds in his salary that undermine the mission statement.
(Nancy) The Bylaws re this have been put as an easy link from the Agenda ../nonproft/sep2803b.htm
(Brent) Jan: please see the link off the agenda "Bylaws".
(Jan) Nancy, then please forward a copy of those reports as stated in Article 7, Section 5, and post them to the nonprofit area of the web site
(Roger) In fact, all of us are volunteers! Please, let us table this... forever!
(Nancy) Our assets during 2002 did not change. Our income and outgo in 2002 are stated, and besides YOU as Internal Auditor received a complete copy of all 2002 transactions in the mail in February!
(Nancy) I should restate, you received 4Q paperwork, as the other quarters were sent earlier.
(Jan) It is not the Internal Auditors responsibility to do the books, only to check them. Receiving the receipts do not constitute such reporting.
(Nancy) I think what has been included as a link from the Agenda today suffices, coves what the Bylaws state.
(Roger) Jan wants a nice pretty report with a title and everything. Jan, as an inspector that often gets handed a stack of data and not the final document requested, do you think you could look at the data and generate a report on your own as a volunteer and member of this non-profit corporation?
(Nancy) The Bylaws do NOT require a CPA certified statement. If you are looking for a 2002 Balance Statement, to take away yet another day of my time from more important work, then this can be provided, but it would be the numbers given just restated!
(Roger) Then you could "sign off on it" and post it as a link on the next agenda.
(Nancy) Assets, changes in assets, revenues, liabilities, expenses, transactions involving directors, in 2002, have been PROVIDED!!!!
(Jan) I have never required a CPA certified statement. Quickbooks should be able to give you everything you need, both for the Balance Sheet & Profit and Loss
(Brent) Per the link off the agenda, our available cash has dwindled to $1874.00 As Roger says, we are not the United Way, and only meet on the internet not in person as other boards do. We are talking about a miniscule amount of money here that we are utilizing for the booklet as long as it will last.
(Nancy) I sign off on what I have provided as a link from the Agenda for this meeting!
(Roger) Nancy has provided the data. The Directors have accepted it. The only member that is disputing it is you, Jan. Nancy is quite busy volunteering her time in other aspects of this organization.
(Jan) Roger, my role is Internal Auditor. This is my duty. Why don't you go fire up that tiller of yours?
(Roger) I don't own a tiller Jan.
(Brent) Jan: I have received all the information you requested at the same time Nancy sent it to you. Have you mislocated it?
(Nancy) Jan, I don't have Quickbooks on my PCs nor do I know how to use them. We would be paying hundred of dollars at this point to get Wegner to update the Quickbooks, and they in any case have refused to give us even a printed Balance Statement as I reported, for unknown and unstated reasons, though submitted a bill for the first two quarters of 2002.
(Nancy) They either want more money, or think us small fry.
(Roger) We are small fry!
(Brent) WE are small fry..... not worth their time unless we have more money!
(Nancy) WHY is this Balance Statement, not required by the Bylaws, a sticking point? It involves only moving numbers around on the page, the numbers would not change.
(Jan) Nancy, the nonprofit bought a copy of Quickbooks for the Treasurer's usage. I actually thought that was trabsferred from Ron to you when you took over as Treasurer.
(Roger) Exactly why the member who feels it is important to have it should step up and volunteer to provide it!
(Nancy) Jan, are you making a slur against Roger, re the tiller? Roger's hundreds of hours planting and collecting seed, and mailing booklets, and going to Kikos?
(Brent) I agree. Jan, why don't you do a Quickbooks statement?
(Nancy) I think one need look no futher for the source of inferences against the nonprofit, Jan, it seems to stem from you.
(Nancy) Jan, I've got the Quickbooks, just not the time to learn it as was STATED at the time Ron left and we transferred bookkeeping to Wegner.
(Nancy) No secret, long in the Minutes, you there all the time.
(Brent) I would think that the Internal Auditor could take the accounting numbers provided, and generate a quick books statement for the board.
(Jan) A, An auditor is not a stand-in for the treasurer, If so, who should then audit the auditor?
(Nancy) Jan, you have all those records, as do I, re 2002.
(Jan) B, Quickbooks is only licensed for use in the US
(Brent) Jan: no one wants you to "stand in", just work with the Treasurer, and the numbers provided.
(Nancy) My point being, our Balance Statement is a dozen lines long! Income, outgo, assets, that's IT. We are small.
(Jan) C, It has been noted that the bylaws are interpreted differently from case to case, based on seemingly personal preferences.
(Roger) The treasurer has provided the data for the auditor. If the auditor is not happy with the form of the data, the auditor is free to generate his/her own report to ease the readibility of the data.
(Nancy) I can plug in the numbers to the last Balance Statement, make a pretty page, but what on earth is the POINT.
(Nancy) OR, I can answer hundreds of email, post photos and information on the web, and give interviews to thousands around the world re pending earth changes and the signs.
(Brent) Jan: I have just read Section 5, and I DO NOT see where we have deviated, or "interpreted" differently.
(Nancy) Of course, Jan has his priorities straight.
(Jan) Article 7, Section 5. The point is to do the right thing and to respect our own bylaws.
(Nancy) Jan, the Bylaws are in writing, as an easy link from the Agenda, what is MISSING that is required? You pass out slurs but do NOT get specific.
(Roger) My agency with the state is experiencing this very thing with a licensee. They insist on using a hand written method of accounting for radioactive material, yet they cannot provide answers to questions in a timely manner using the system. We cannot require them to go electronic, only cite them for failure to provide the data. I understand the the state is not the same as the federal, but we have already covered the requirements of th
(Nancy) Well we're not radioactive.
(Roger) Thank goodness!
(Nancy) We're advising folks on how to grow seed, sending out packets, and publishing a booklet.
(Nancy) Jan, your 'right thing' was to dump the nonprofit, and not even bother to ask the membership, so you are not one to point your nose high.
(Roger) Once again, I must move that we table this discussion and go on to the next agenda item.
(Nancy) I second Roger's motion.
(Brent) Jan: if there is still concern on your part, why not generate a balance sheet of your own, (even if you don't use quick books), and see if there are discrepencies? No one else feels there are, but it would seem to put your mind at ease to do so.
(Jan) And I'll leave you guys to do whatever you think is right for this great organization with 36 members, whereof 8 active enough to cast a vote. Goodbye
(Nancy) Is that goodby forever?
(Brent) Are we all satisfied that there is no evidence of missing funds?
(Roger) Yes, very satisfied!
(Mary) I am.
(Nancy) Actually, it was 14 that cast a vote, I think.
(Roger) The majority vote of 8 was for our current course of action.
(Brent) For the record, the balance sheets provided by the Treasurer are now, and have been accurate. there is no evidence of misappropriation or missing funds.
(Brent) Item 4 Domain name renewal
(Mary) What is the cost and do we have it?
(Nancy) I recall a cost of $12/year or some such, much lower than InterNIC which is why Jurian went with this domain distributor.
(Mary) I move we appropriate the funds to pay for another year.
(Nancy) The issue is ownership, as Jurian is the owner. We would need to contact him and get him to make payment, or provide an avenue.
(Roger) I second Mary's motion.
(Nancy) OR, perhaps we could try to make online payment ourselves, as generally no one minds if $$ is put into an account, just taken out.
(Mary) Has anyone contacted Jurian for his view?
(Brent) Nancy: you worked with Jurian on this previously.... will you contact him about this?
(Roger) Hmmm, if the domain names will expire at 9AM, can we just register them again at 9:01AM under new ownership?
(Nancy) Not I, but I probably have a folder that details the Domain provider, it is European.
(Nancy) I'm not sure, it may be available at that provider for sale. The danger, of course, is that someone else may try to smap them up and put a disinfo page on the web.
(Mary) Very well, then do what needs to be done and get the domain re-registerd.
(Nancy) I think we need to pursue renewing them. Naji sent me the notice, and I will enlist his help with this.
(Nancy) He apparently knows the domain provider or did a WHOIS
(Nancy) I will also dig up the folder, and see if one can just go in and do a credit card update. If so, I will DO this.
(Nancy) I will also notify Jurian and see if I can get him to assist.
(Brent) OK, good. We have a motion to provide funds for this, and a second.
(Nancy) I do recall that it was not as user friendly as InterNIC was.
(Brent) All in favor vote yes, opposed: no
(Roger) Will Jurian transfer ownership to the non-profit?
(Nancy) I could not transfer ownership to myself, from Jurian, though he was willing, even via the mails.
(Brent) Shirley (proxy): yes
(Brent) The motion carries. Yes, it would be good if Jurian would transfer ownership to you Nancy.
(Nancy) Brent, re the Minutes in Shirley's absense, I would like to forward them to YOU for reviews, before putting on the web, OK?
(Brent) OK, you mean like a "spell check or something?
(Nancy) Brent, no I mean content and tone OK :-)
(Brent) I see, no problem!
(Nancy) Just the Minutes, as I have not done them in a couple years at all.
(Brent) Sure, and thanks for doing them!
(Brent) If there is no more business to discuss, I officially adjourn the meeting.
(Brent) It's 2 minutes before the hour.
Session Close: Sun Sep 20:58 UTC 2003